Re: Does anyone have information...

["John Kineman" <***>]

Hi all, just popping back in after a long absence buried in
inconsequential work.

I didn't follow the history of this conversation but just a note that
Pacala and Holling would be good endorsements to get. I'm personally
very interested in applying RRosen's stuff in ecology and these guys
could help legitimize that; unless they have already committed some
unforgivable sin, which of course is entirely possible in translating
RRosen.

that said, "simplifying complexity" was a title that occurred to me as
well, but in the context of communicating to my geophysical colleagues
and bosses here at the data center who will probably never believe the
world isn't physically deterministic, all else being sloppy thinking.
Everybody wants "X made simple" these days. Even the title "complexity"
in a program might be a problem, as the bureaucrats automatically assume
it would offer no solutions to anything, just endless discussions of
what you can't do. In truth any way we have of understanding complexity,
even RRosen's, is a simplification of some sort; so don't go too hard on
them if they are truly aware of complexity but are trying to communicate
it to the masses that are still used to simple sciences and the policy
freaks who expect precise, linear answers to everything. A little bit of
a trojan horse strategy might be OK.

John Kineman


Judith Rosen wrote:

>Hi Dan, thanks for the info. You say lots of good things about this guy,
>which balances him a little more. I have to be fair and say I think the use
>of "Pan" may not be a reference to the mythological god but instead derived
>from the Greek root "pantos" which my dictionary says means "all". It's the
>root of words like pandemic, panamerican, pantheism, panorama, etc. I could
>be wrong, about their intentions and you may right. Or perhaps they intended
>it to be a play on words since the god Pan is the god of fields, forests,
>and wild animals, etc.
>
>Judith
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Dan Fiscus" <***>
>To: <***>
>Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 9:23 AM
>Subject: Re: [ROSEN] Does anyone have information...
>
>
>
>
>>Judith,
>>
>>I know a bit about Buzz Holling, who I would call a highly
>>respected as well as boldly innovative elder statesman of
>>ecological science. Don't really know Pacala. Holling has
>>worked on biomath problems such as the cyclic pattern of
>>spruce and spruce budworm infestation. He has written a
>>monograph on "Cross-scale morphology" in ecology that
>>includes an idea of "ecological quanta". He is leader of a
>>fairly radical and creative group called the Resilience
>>Alliance, who publish the free web journal Conservation
>>Ecology. He is famous for a "figure 8" diagram depicting a
>>recurring cycle of change in ecosystems in a changing
>>environment, with major disturbances, involving
>>reorganization, exploitation, conservation, release and
>>back to reorganization. An photocopy of this conceptual
>>model is here:
>>
>>http://al.umces.edu/~fiscus/research/images/cycling/holling150.jpg
>>
>>He has co-written a book called Panarchy that seems to
>>suggest (I've only skimmed so far) that control is from all
>>scales within complex systems, not a single scale and not
>>just from top-down, not just from bottom-up. They also
>>invoke the god Pan to name the theory, which to me is like
>>throwing in with Lovelock and validating the use of
>>persona/gods/mythical figures as a way to label theories
>>(and not invalidating them due to teleological hidden
>>agendas). The main point here is that he seems bold and
>>not afraid to rock any and all boats of the "entrenched
>>orthodoxy" of science.
>>
>>Holling is one of many of my ecosystem science heroes. I'd
>>vote for him!! I think he could definitely "get" Rosen
>>complexity in theory and could even link it to many real
>>world cases in complex systems - natural ecosystems as well as
>>human organizations (which Panarchy also covers).
>>
>>Dan
>>
>>Judith Rosen wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I have had a report from Columbia U. Press that the republication of
>>>Life, Itself in paperback is again postponed-- to autumn of 2004. Also,
>>>they are thinking of adding a forward to the book, written by either of
>>>two men whose names I do not recognize. I have done some research on
>>>both, and as part of that research, I would like to ask the list
>>>subscribers whether you have any information on these individuals.
>>>Specifically, are either or both of them "qualified" to speak
>>>authoritatively about Rosennean Complexity? If you have some information
>>>and don't feel comfortable posting it on the list, by all means please
>>>contact me directly. The names are Buzz Holling (Retired from University
>>>of Florida) and Steve Pacala (at Princeton).
>>>
>>>Thanks, folks.
>>>
>>>Judith
>>>
>>>