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Re: When does an (M,R) system cease to be alive?



Hi, Tim,
see below added to your text
 
JonM
----- Original Message -----
From: Tim Gwinn
To: ***
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 10:34 AM
Subject: Re: When does an (M,R) system cease to be alive?

Hi Judith,
 
Then "closed to efficient causation" may be a necessity for creation of life, but not a necessity for continuance - for what is "life" or "aliveness". Hmmm, those are two very different questions.
 
Replication, in this case, does not refer to reproduction of the organism. It refers to the replication of repair components inside the (M,R) system. The way he explained it in the 1972 paper (p. 234-235), without replication, the finite "lifetime" of repair components would determine the maximum lifespan of the organism. By being able to replicate those repair components, the organisms lifespan can persist over multiple "lifetimes" of metabolism components and repair components.
 
Regards,
Tim
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: ROSEN Forum [mailto:***On Behalf Of Judith Rosen
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 9:58 AM
To: ***
Subject: Re: When does an (M,R) system cease to be alive?

The conditions necessary for life out of complexity can be damaged after the fact, without immediately extinguishing the life of the organism, but that doesn't change the conditions that were necessary for life to emerge from complexity in the first place. With regards to replication (aka reproduction), that is only necessary for a living system to evolve, not for the system to be alive.
 
Judith
 
From: Tim Gwinn
To: ***
Sent: Monday, October 06, 2003 8:25 PM
Subject: [ROSEN] When does an (M,R) system cease to be alive?

I'd been thinking recently about Rosen's (M,R) systems, and after re-reading the 1972 paper from "Foundations of Mathematical Biology" article, and his mentioning of "nonreestablishable components", it occurred to me to try a gedanken experiment. Namely:
1) Suppose that a certain living organism is a realization of an (M,R) system. 
2) Suppose we can damage or incapacitate the replication component(s) (called "Beta" in the (M,R) diagram) in this organism.
 
This would cause the functional organization to no longer be closed to efficient causation. (Because the question "why Phi?" no longer has an answer for efficient cause within the diagram. see LI 250.)
 
But I think I would consider that this organism would continue to be alive until one of the repair components that normally would have been replaced by the replication function has failed, followed by a failure of a corresponding metabolic component which can no longer be repaired. At this point, I would consider death to occur.
 
It would seem to me that although an organism incapacitated in this way would have a greatly reduced lifespan, it remains alive beyond the point of that incapacitation, and until the cessation of metabolism.
 
So, then, does "closed to efficient causation" even qualify as a necessary condition for "alive"? Or, has death actually occurred at the point of the incapacitation, and the time delay observed before the cessation of all metabolism is merely just a delay in the cessation of some of the subordinate processes?
 
Regards,
Tim
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
May I suggest to open up and reconsider the aspects of the wholeness (complexity) and its intereffective influences?
 
considering that the "existence" is a process, nothing repeats itself unchanged - the environment is changing.
So the "repair" tools are reformulated in their new appearance which change is sufficient reason for death.
 
John M