Re: Autopoiesis, Rosen Complexity, boundedness

["Tim Gwinn" <***>]

Dan,

H2O is wet only under certain ranges of its ecosystem - certain pressures,
temperatures, etc. Very similar restrictions to those for life, actually.
However, I would not then conclude that the property of "wetness" is more
properly a term extending or applying to the whole ecosystem. Instead, I
would say that "H2O is wet....in appropriate contexts". Similarly, I would
say that "an organism is alive......in appropriate contexts". The properties
"wet" and "alive" apply to the respective nouns (water, organism), rather
than to: noun + qualifier ("appropriate contexts") .

Thats my line of thinking, anyway.

Regards,
Tim


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ROSEN Forum [mailto:*** Behalf Of Dan
> Fiscus
> Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 3:12 PM
> To: ***
> Subject: Re: Autopoiesis, Rosen Complexity, boundedness
>
>
> Juan-Carlos Letelier wrote:
>
> >3Bis) the main difference between Autopoietic and (M,R) systems...is the
> >notion of discreteness (encapsulation). One of the most fundamental
> >properties of Living Systems...is that they are discrete entities....They
> >are not "gases" or "fields"...they are "a mouse" or "a bacterium".  The
> >formalism of (M,R) systems appears to treat living systems as un-bounded
> >entities.
> >
>
> Juan-Carlos,
>
> I think the apparently clear boundedness or discreteness of
> organisms is mostly an artifact of our points of view,
> choices of scales of space, time, etc. If you think a mouse or
> bacterium is really bounded as in self-contained or self-creating or
> autopoetic or able to do M and R within the boundary that is
> defined by its body, try isolating that mouse or bacterium in a
> sealed compartment of that size or a bit bigger.
>
> The main property of the mouse that we are discussing - its life - is
> not bounded in the same way as its body. Separate it from its
> necessary context - which includes continuous supply of air, water
> and food among other things - and life will leave the body, even if
> the body stays. A better boundary for the life aspect is an
> ecosystem capable of supplying these three inputs and more, or
> perhaps the planetary biosphere itself. Even this boundary requires
> input from outside, energy from the sun for life...
>
> Dan Fiscus