Re: Anticipatory behavior

["Tim Gwinn" <***>]

Yes, but in the that word "health" resides the real difficulty. Healthy for
who? Healthy in what way? And so on. In particular, he discussed the ways in
which fitness of adaptations on an individual level and adaptations on a
evolutionary scale, even within the context of a single species, diverges:
"Conceptual difficulties with evolution have always grown from the fact that
the two need not coincide." (EL p. 322)

I imagine that if we were to promote one kind of relationship in a way that
we could measure as being more symbiotic than parasitic, then it is likely
that the resulting increase in symbiosis will have some deleterious effect
on some other organism. Even worse is that the biosphere at large is, by its
nature (no pun intended), home to constantly evolving (on differing
timescales) organisms such that the overall system - the one which we want
to become more symbiotic with (using predictive models and anticipatory
behavior) - is ever-shifting.

I don't think this makes any attempt to live more symbiotically impossible,
but it does make the criteria for 'success' in that regard much more
difficult to gauge, in my view. Specifically, I have always been reluctant
to consider such symbiotic success to be measured as the degree to which an
ecosystem remains unchanged, primarily because an unchanged ecosystem is, in
my view, a kind of short-term parasitic timescale view, rather than a
longer-term global (evolutionary) timescale.

In the global evolutionary timescale view, an altering of an ecosystem seems
to me unavoidable unless we deny all evolutionary capacity of the organisms
therein (and nearby). But I do not think most ecologists would favor this
view, although it seems inevitable to me.

Regards,
Tim

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ROSEN Forum [mailto:*** Behalf Of Judith
> Rosen
> Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 11:53 AM
> To: ***
> Subject: Re: Anticipatory behavior
>
>
> Interesting. By these standards, humanity is dangerously close to being
> maladaptive in the same way as a parasite is; we are damaging the total
> system of which we are a part and on which we depend entirely. It
> will only
> be by changing our behavior to that of a symbiosis rather than parasitism
> that we will achieve health for ourselves and health for the larger system
> that we are part of.
>
> Judith
> Website address: http://www.rosen-enterprises.com/
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tim Gwinn" <***>
> To: <***>
> Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 10:42 AM
> Subject: Re: [ROSEN] Anticipatory behavior
>
>
> > In AS, he did discuss parasitism to some extent - I just happened to be
> > reading about it last nite, actually.
> >
> > "Speaking in purely biological terms, the generation of maladaptive
> behavior
> > in subsystems, created by a fast-acting local selection mechanism [as
> > opposed to a global selection mechanism - TG] of the kind we have
> described,
> > results in the establishment of a *parasitic* relation between the
> > subsystems and the total system.Such a relation is
> characterized precisely
> > by the fact that what appears to be an adaptive response by the
> subsystem,
> > according to its own local selection criterion, actually decreases the
> > fitness of the total system to which the subsystem belongs." (AS p. 394)
> >
> > So, a parasitic relation in some sense is about adaptation
> occurring on a
> > different timescale than the adaptation timescale of the overal (global)
> > system. Cancerous cells or some viruses may be adaptive in ways that
> promote
> > their rapid success, but with disregard to long-term (global) effects on
> the
> > (host + parasite). I suppose one could say that parasites are
> > "short-sighted", but that is an opinion only from the perspective of the
> > global timeframe.
> >
> > He goes on to note that there must be some kind of balance between local
> and
> > global adaptation abilities. Otherwise, a complete lack of local
> > adaptiveness (i.e., a fixed predictive model) may lead to an
> inability for
> > the subsystem (e.g., a symbiote) to be flexible enough to
> maintain itself
> as
> > the overall system changes.
> >
> > Many of the ideas in 'Cooperation and Chimera' in EL could also
> be used to
> > study parasitism too, I suppose. It would just mean altering some of the
> > equations to reflect a one-sided preferential relationship between
> > organisms, rather than a mutually beneficial one.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Tim
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: ROSEN Forum [mailto:*** Behalf
> Of Judith
> > > Rosen
> > > Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 11:18 PM
> > > To: ***
> > > Subject: Anticipatory behavior
> > >
> > >
> > > I don't really know what my father would say about social
> > > systems, we didn't
> > > discuss them in that vein so I only have his written work to
> go on , the
> > > same as everyone. He spent a year in the early 80's in Santa
> > > Barbara working
> > > at Robert Hutchins' "Center for the Study of Democratic
> Systems" or some
> > > title close to that. He said that he compared cities to organisms in
> that
> > > their structure and organization  are based on function, they need raw
> > > materials in order to continue in good working order, they
> create waste,
> > > they have what compares to a metabolism, etc. But he didn't say they
> were
> > > "alive". It's hard to separate out what humans do based on
> their thought
> > > process-- very sticky! I suspect that way lies innumerable
> booby-traps.
> I
> > > don't envy anyone trying to scientifically analyze such things
> > > according to
> > > my father's ideas of complexity.
> > >
> > > I think Tim's comments about social systems are probably sound, with
> some
> > > exhibiting what seems like anticipatory behavior (whether
> they really do
> > > exhibit it or not is another matter) and the "mob" certainly doesn't.
> > > Ecosystems and social systems alike, generally don't have the kind of
> > > coherent organization that is the "womb"  for anticipatory behavior.
> > > Anticipatory behavior is the hallmark of living systems, not just
> complex
> > > systems. Studying such things becomes very difficult-- It's sometimes
> very
> > > hard to sort out where one system's organization leaves off and
> another's
> > > begins, or what happens when two systems share parts but are
> distinctly
> > > different systems in spite of being connected. And then there is
> > > the pickle
> > > of parasitic creatures whose environment or ecosystem is a living
> > > organism.
> > > It's way too mind-boggling for me!  I don't know if my father
> > > wrote out any
> > > suggestions on how to study them as opposed to the old,
> > > reductionist method.
> > > That's not an area I had asked him about. I was too invested
> in getting
> my
> > > mind around the basic core concepts. But if he did, you will be
> > > able to find
> > > it.
> > >
> > > Judith
> > > Website address: http://www.rosen-enterprises.com/