Re: Grains of salt...

["Tim Gwinn" <***>]

The two main differences I note over the course of his books are 1)
refinements of his concepts of Rosennean complexity, and 2) the role of
"closed to efficient causation" in relation to organisms.

In FM, "complexity" appears to be a matter of a single model being
inadequate to describe a system. In AS, complexity becomes related to the
number of non-equivalent ways of viewing a system. In LI and EL, a system
possessing a (Turing) noncomputable model is the benchmark for complexity.
All of the views are consistent, but the latter view provides the most
precise formulation of them all, in my opinion.From this, other corollary
consequences occur. (Or, perhaps better: as a result, other ways of
indicating complexity arises.)

In LI, "a material system is an organism if, and only if, it is closed to
efficient causation" (p. 244). In EL, the strength of this relationship is
weaker, wherein "closed to efficient causation" becomes only a necessary
cause. In fact, as for sufficient causes, he notes that "perhaps there are
none" (p. 28). I find that latter remark very intriguing.

Regards,
Tim

P.S. - I do have some more typos to send you, Judith. I want to try and cull
some more before sending you another list.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ROSEN Forum [mailto:*** Behalf Of Judith
> Rosen
> Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 8:58 AM
> To: ***
> Subject: Re: Grains of salt...
>
>
> The differences are mostly tweaking of his definitions, from what I have
> seen. MInd you, I don't have the chops to discuss the math or the
> physics at
> all. I only lay claim to having a very solid basic knowledge of the core
> ideas and how they all fit together as well as some idea of the kinds of
> applications he could envision for many of these ideas. If there are any
> technical "inconsistencies" (changes in technical points from earlier to
> later books) then the specifics will have to be for you guys to
> point out to
> me! I would like to hear them. Incidentally, just as a general
> announcement:
> If anyone has taken the time to document typos or other mistakes
> in various
> texts of my father's, I would very much like to have them emailed
> to me. As
> I go through the process of getting all these books back out in the
> marketplace, I want to correct that kind of thing. Tim sent me a list that
> documented some of them. This is very helpful so anyone else who
> is willing
> to keep a notepad with you while you read and jot down page numbers and
> paragraph locations, I send my eternal gratitude in advance. I have made 8
> copies of Anticipatory Systems and 8 copies of Fundamentals of Measurement
> so far, but I see some things myself that will need to be fixed before the
> next batch are run off.
>
> Judith
> Website address: http://www.rosen-enterprises.com/
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tim Gwinn" <***>
> To: <***>
> Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2003 12:21 PM
> Subject: Re: [ROSEN] Grains of salt...
>
>
> > Judith,
> > If its not involved to describe it, can you give us an overview
> or summary
> > of some of those major differences in thought between AS and LI ?
> > Regards,
> > Tim
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: ROSEN Forum [mailto:*** Behalf
> Of Judith
> > > Rosen
> > > Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2003 10:35 AM
> > > To: ***
> > > Subject: Grains of salt...
> > >
> > >
> > > Hello Everyone,
> > >
> > > I recently had some discussions with a colleague of my father's
> > > that brought
> > > to mind an important consideration for anyone studying his
> written work.
> I
> > > had this converstion because of my efforts to get photocopied versions
> of
> > > the out of print books made so that they will be available
> for purchase.
> > > This colleague was saying that he didn't agree with many of
> the details
> in
> > > Anticipatory Systems although he and my father agreed
> conceptually. The
> > > specifics he gave me were enough for me to recognize that my
> father had
> > > actually changed most of those details in later works, such as
> > > Life, Itself.
> > > That, in turn led me to include an editorial note in the photocopied
> > > editions discussing this aspect of following someone's
> creative thought
> > > process over time (ie: reading older books). I have seen many
> arguments
> > > break out in discussions of my father's ideas that pit a recent
> > > description
> > > (from Life, Itself) of some aspect of his work against an earlier
> > > description he wrote in a previous paper or monograph. When we think
> about
> > > it, it's not surprising that Robert Rosen would change his
> > > thought structure
> > > if it was required to find the answers he was seeking. He
> always said he
> > > "followed the problem" and he discarded or revised whatever
> part of his
> > > conceptual framework that solving the problem dictated. Therefore, all
> his
> > > older work needs to be taken in that light. Each of his books
> and papers
> > > represented his ideas at the moment, but were only accurate as
> > > far as he had
> > > gotten in his thinking up to the point of being recorded The
> > > ideas in older
> > > books can only be relied on to be an accurate reflection of his entire
> > > theoretical framework if the same thoughts survived his constant
> revision
> > > process over time and are visible in his final works as well.
> > >
> > > The value of reading the earlier work is subjective but I believe that
> > > sometimes seeing the thought process as it progresses through
> > > time can give
> > > insight into the perspecive and mind of the person who is
> generating it.
> > > That may lead to inspiration for the reader down the road who
> > > wants to take
> > > these ideas to a new level. He said the road map is all there in his
> work
> > > and a discerning reader/thinker will be able to follow it to the ideas
> he
> > > didn't publish or hadn't gotten to yet. Another benefit I find is
> > > that many
> > > of the ideas in his first books actually did stay with him all the way
> > > through and seeing those ideas rephrased a few different ways can
> > > make them
> > > much clearer to the reader.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Judith
> > > Website address: http://www.rosen-enterprises.com/